People:

Kirstine Michaelsen – Guest, also known as Kia, previously manager at Sing Tehus in Copenhagen

George Guttridge-Smith – Host of the podcast

Miwako – Tea Farmer at Kyoto Obubu Tea Farms, respected for her hojicha selections

Pau – Mentioned as attending a wagashi event with Kirstine

Kay-san – Staff at Garden Lab in Kyoto

Simona Suzuki – Author of Japanese Tea: A Comprehensive Guide

Sei Shōnagon – Author of The Pillow Book

Okakura Kakuzō – Author of The Book of Tea

7. Akky – President of Kyoto Obubu Tea Farms

8. Miwako – Staff of Kyoto Obubu Tea Far

Companies and Organisations:

Sing Tehus – Japanese tea house in Copenhagen where Kirstine works

Kyoto Obubu Tea Farms – Japanese tea producer where Kirstine interned

Maison des Trois Thés – Taiwanese-focused tea shop in Paris

Terre de Chine – Chinese tea shop in Paris

Fortnum and Mason – British brand producing sparkling tea

Garden Lab – Tea cocktail bar in Kyoto

Locations and Cultivars:

Copenhagen – Kirstine’s home city and tea hub

Kyoto – The city where Kirstine first encountered wagashi and interned at Obubu

Koyasan – Where Kirstine had a memorable zenzai experience

Wazuka – Location of Wazuka-cha café, known for hojicha

Yamagata – Where Kirstine had a cold soba dish with okra

Kamikatsu – George’s destination to explore Awabancha

Shikoku – Japanese island where Awabancha is produced

China – Referenced during discussion on Puerh and tea travel

Nepal – Mentioned briefly as part of broader tea regions

Paris – Location of Kirstine’s recent tea-centric travel experience

[00:00:00] George: Okay. We’re definitely recording this time. Are you brewing any tea?

[00:00:05] Kirstine: I just did brew some tea in the bowl that I made with you.

[00:00:11] George: Yes!

[00:00:12] Kirstine: So now I’m making some Samidori Uji matcha.

[00:00:19] George: Ooh!

[00:00:20] Kirstine: Yeah.

[00:00:21] George: Very nice!

[00:00:22] Kirstine: It’s from “io”, so, like a tea shop and house in Copenhagen that does exclusively organic teas from Japan.

[00:00:32] George: Very nice.

[00:00:33] Kirstine: Yeah. It’s good. It’s really good.

[00:00:36] George: If you would be able to tell me what your name is and where are you from? I think that would make a great start.

[00:00:41] Kirstine: So my name is Kirstine Michaelsen, but I like to go by Kia and I’m from Denmark, where I currently live in the capital of Copenhagen.

[00:00:55] George: A beautiful place, I gotta say. So I was hoping you would be able to share a little bit your your connection with tea. What’s your connection with tea?

[00:01:04]

[00:01:04] Kirstine: Yeah, my interest in tea is, in a way, still fairly new. I’ve been drinking tea all my life, but not very good quality tea. Like my mom would buy a lot of tea, but it would be like predominantly green teas, like, with some sort of aroma added to it. So not not super good quality, but I, I don’t know, I always liked drinking it nonetheless. But like the more, like, active interest in tea kind of started when I was an exchange student in Japan in 2023. So I was an exchange student at Ritsumeikan University in Kyoto. And Kyoto has such an amazing culture of tea, but also wagashi, so Japanese sweets, which was kind of initially my big passion. Like, I always had a sweet tooth, but I was just really, really fascinated with the wagashi that I found in Kyoto, just really, really like the looks of them, but also like the Japanese flavors I really, really love. I’m a big lover of of anko. And so initially I was just super into sweets. But then of course, tea is always kind of a part of that. But then tea ended up becoming more and more, like, object of interest for me. So at that time when I was on exchange, I was kind of far in my education. I was like finishing up my my bachelor’s degree and I was going to enter my master’s. And that’s a good time to start to think about also, like, what you want to do afterwards when you’re no longer a student. And and for a long time during my studies, I’ve been focusing a lot on Japanese politics. But to be honest, it was not something that made me very happy. So I wanted to shift my focus into something that was exciting for me. And I always kind of knew that that would be something that had to do with the senses in some way or another, and tea just really resonated strongly with that. So I started looking for for internships that were related to tea, and through, like, an old acquaintance, I had like a contact at the tea house in Copenhagen called Sing Tehus, where I applied for for an internship, and I was lucky enough to get it. So I worked as a tea brewer for three months and just completely fell in love with that part of it. Like brewing tea for people. That is probably still my very, very favorite thing about tea. But when you start to to just know a little bit about something, I feel like it’s often a natural reaction that you want to, like, understand it on a deeper, deeper level. So I also really, really wanted to somehow get behind the scenes and understand a little bit more about the production side of tea. So the tea house I work at has like a predominant focus on Japanese tea. And as a student of Japanese studies, it’d just make sense to to go to Japan. So I also searched for internships related to tea in Japan, and I found Obubu and applied for an internship, like, as fast as I could so that I would have three months at the tea house in Copenhagen and then three months in Japan, like right after. There was just like some timing that seemed too good to be true. And I was very, very lucky to, to get it. And I think before I was just able to learn so much about about tea and partake in all of the initial processes, which was so, so fascinating. And it’s just made me, it like cemented my idea of like wanting to be working with tea in some form or another, but I think, yeah, for me, like the focus is probably still like serving tea, it’s like where I feel the most at home, I would say.

[00:05:54] George: And you’re you’re currently at Sing Tea House. Correct? So you finished your internship and then you returned to Copenhagen and you’re now at Sing Tea House. In what position?

[00:06:08] Kirstine: So when I returned from Japan I was very lucky to be able to join the staff more permanently. And, as it has developed now, I am the shop manager of the tea house that is in Værnedamsvej, which is in quite central part of Copenhagen.

[00:06:30] George: Cool. That’s… So you’ve gone from Japanese studies like politics to, you know, your passion for sweets and wagashi through to a connection of that being tea, doing an internship in Copenhagen for a tea house focused on Japanese tea, predominantly, to go to Japan for Japanese tea, to a the store manager for the same company for Japanese tea as well. That’s so cool! So from, or, just one thing that popped into my mind when you were mentioning that, is: do you have a favorite Wagashi? Is there, what is your like go-to-wagashi? If you had to pick one, if you could only choose one.

[00:07:19] Kirstine: Depends on the season.

[00:07:21] George: Oh no.

[00:07:22] Kirstine: So I think for me, like most of the time that I have spent in Japan, like put together, has been in the summertime. So for me, like, when I think of Japan, I very much think of summer, and my favorite summer Wagashi would probably have to be like Warabimochi. Like, like the softer, like more like. Originally Warabimochi was made with like bracken starch, but now I think it’s much more often like rice starch that you use for it. But like a very, very soft, almost like gelatinous type of mochi that you can have served like either with, like, like, kinako or like roasted soybean powder or, like, black sugar syrup, stuff like that. But that is like so, so, so delicious. And we don’t have anything similar to that in Europe, nothing similar.

[00:08:23] George: No, it feels very, very much like a Japanese, a Japanese sweet. So very tasty, very, very tasty. I, not that you asked, but I’m going to share anyway. But my I recently, I recently like I had one last year and it kind of knocked my socks off. I was so surprised how delicious this was. And then I had another one last Monday. So this is also seasonal, but it’s a kaki [persimon] wagashi. So it’s, it looks like a kaki, but it’s, you know, a beautiful little model of a kaki in wagashi format. And then the outer layer is like it’s also a little bit mochi mochi. So it’s not like your normal wagashi. It also has like a mochi mochi texture. And it also is made with real pieces of kaki like mixed into the mochi mochi outside part. And then it’s anko in the center. And it’s just, and, but the anko is white bean.

[00:09:32] Kirstine: Yeah.

[00:09:33] George: And with kaki like parts in it as well. So it’s just so delicious. But it’s only in the autumn time when it’s, you know, the season for kaki that you can get these. And I’ve only ever had two in my whole time here in Japan, but they are just heavenly and I don’t think I’d want many.

[00:09:55] Kirstine: But you have to wait for it a bit, you know? Yeah, yeah. Do you prefer, like like white bean anko over, like, red bean?

[00:10:07] George: I think context dependent. I think in, I think in tea ceremony, I prefer white bean paste or the smooth red bean paste. If it’s the chunky variety, I prefer that in a more casual setting. Or, what’s that new Year’s dish? Like that winter dish?

[00:10:29] Kirstine: Zenzai?

[00:10:31] George: One more time?

[00:10:31] Kirstine: Zenzai.

[00:10:32] George: Yes, zenzai. So I had that just at the bottom of Fushimi Inari at New Year’s. So around New Year’s, I go and do the little round of Fushimi Inari and you can get zenzai at the bottom. And so like either on the way up or on the way back, I’ll get zenzai. And it’s super yummy on a cold day, so.

[00:10:57] Kirstine: It’s incredible. I had it, had since, I, like, multiple times in Japan. But this January, January of this year, I had it for the first time, like in winter, where it just felt so absolutely perfect and, like, I had it in like a, like, almost it felt like a diner style, like, Japanese style diner in Koyasan. It was just pure, pure bliss, you know, like the steam coming up and like.

[00:11:27] George: Koyasan as well. Would have been really cold. Was it, was it, was there snow at the time?

[00:11:32] Kirstine: There was no snow. Wait, it was, it was snowing. But just like not enough for it to stick. Just to give the magical feeling.

[00:11:42] George: The magical feeling, yeah. Eh, nice! Well, thank you. No, I was just, when you were introducing your journey with tea, and you mentioned Wagashi, I thought I must know what is Kia’s favorite wagashi. Warabimochi. That’s good to know.

[00:11:58] Kirstine: I could make a list, too.

[00:11:59] George: Yeah.

[00:12:01] Kirstine: But there isn’t like…

[00:12:03] George: I’m sure you have a book, don’t you? I saw it when I was when I was in Copenhagen.

[00:12:07] Kirstine: Yeah. No, I have a great, but I have multiple great wagashi books. I went to like, a wagashi exhibition in Kyoto with Pau in the beginning of my internship at Obubu. A very, like, informal type of tea ceremony where you could, you bought a ticket in advance, and then you were able to choose how many wagashi you wanted. And then when you arrived on the day, you could choose which Wagashi you wanted. And I felt kind of embarrassed because you could, you could choose up to three pieces of Wagashi. So naturally I chose three pieces. And when in the tea room, I realized that that’s quite a lot, especially when most people only have one. And you’re just like, like a glutton, just like eating lots.

[00:12:58] George: Do you ever, when you’re when you’re tasting tea, do you ever try or do you ever think this would go nice with a particular wagashi?

[00:13:05] Kirstine: Yes. Definitely. Definitely. Like I think, I think that, like, Jonamagashi, like, like, rice flour and bean based wagashi are ideal for, like, all types of tea. I really feel like Japan has figured it out in that sense. Of course with tea, is hojicha, like the roasted, almost like nuttiness of hojicha is just so good with a lot of sweets. Especially like if, for example, like I had walnut mochi last time I was in Japan with Hojicha is like, it’s it feels like the most beautiful pairing.

[00:13:45] George: That’s lovely. Walnut mochi.

[00:13:48] Kirstine: Yeah.

[00:13:49] George: Dang.

[00:13:51] Kirstine: I can’t remember the word for walnut in Japanese. Kurimi or something like that?

[00:13:56] George: Kurimi.

[00:13:57] Kurimi? Okay. Yeah. Delicious!

[00:14:02] George: Very tasty. Do you, so do you ever wish you had, I don’t know, is there is there any wagashi makers in in Copenhagen?

[00:14:12] Kirstine: No.

[00:14:13] George: No, that’s sad

[00:14:16] Kirstine: It’s does not exist. So it’s like you know, once in a while there is going to be like, there’s like little pop ups or something like that. Like, I know a few Japanese chefs here in Copenhagen that can do wagashi, but don’t do it as a, like a regular thing. But, you know, once in a while there will be like, like, an event where Wagashi will be involved. And I will always, always be.

[00:14:41] George: You know, Kia will be there.

[00:14:43] Kirstine: There is one next week.

[00:14:46] George: Really?

[00:14:47] Kirstine: Yes.

[00:14:48] George: Yeah.

[00:14:49] Kirstine: Yeah.

[00:14:50] George: As, as the store manager of a predominantly Japanese tea house, will you be getting any wagashi to to have at the tea house?

[00:15:00] Kirstine: You know, actually, so when I was an intern at the tea house, we had like, a, we had to, like, give me like, a project goal as part of my internship.

[00:15:13] George: Okay.

[00:15:13] Kirstine: And my project goal as an intern at Sing [Tehus] was to find a way to incorporate Wagashi into the tea house, and I failed.

[00:15:22] George: Oh.

[00:15:24] Kirstine: It’s not the best story. Well, we had a wagashi workshop that was a success, but I reached out Toraya, for instance, to like, kind of explore the opportunities of like having Yokan at the shop, but it does not seem that now is the time to do it. Of course, there’s like the problem of wagashi also being, having like very short shelf life. Usually yokan is kind of an exception for that. But I guess Wagashi is also about having fresh things, right? So that makes it incredibly tricky. And while I think Yokan is is very delicious, we didn’t have so much success like presenting it to Danish guests, at the teahouse. So, I feel like you kind of have to start somewhere else, maybe, with Wagashi, I’m not sure. Or you should just be very, very stubborn and just insist that people should love Yokan. I don’t know.

[00:16:24] George: Yokan is a, like a sugary, I don’t know, it’s not really gelatinous, is it? It’s, how would you describe Yokan?

[00:16:34] Kirstine: Yeah, it is like a set bean jelly. So it’s set with agar agar. So like, like, the vegan gelatin. So like, it’s like extracted from seaweed, right, and gives like kind of another form of gelatinous texture that is of course similar to gelatin but but as its own. And then yeah, so the basic version will be like sweetened red bean and like set into this, this jelly, and you just have a little bit. And it just goes really well with tea as well. But you can also have them like flavored or decorated depending on season. Like, you can find also versions with like yeah kaki or chestnut when it’s autumn, like now, or like you can find more clear yokan, like for the summer time, that kind of emulates the sense of like something light or water, something like that.

[00:17:29] George: I always feel when, when I have yokan that it’s kind of missing the wow factor of the visual side in a way, because it has this like thickness to the texture and it is usually oblong. So you’re usually looking at this oblong shape, which is, then you have to like cut a piece off and then you eat that. And it’s very sweet, very sweet. And so it never, it’s never exactly my cup of tea. I never don’t enjoy it. Like it’s always quite enjoyable when I have it, but it’s not my favorite sweet to have with tea. If that’s not too rude to say.

[00:18:15] Kirstine: It’s totally okay to say, but it is, yeah, just like a tiny bit. I think at my first week of Obubu, I had some really good yokan that Matsu-san brought, and and he cut up and served everybody, like, at the office. And that was like an matcha Yokan, and, you know, it was also like the same shape, but it was just kind of small. And then he cut the pieces very, very thin. And so you just had like a few pieces with tea and that just felt like quite ideal. But but I also really understand that it’s not for, for everybody. I think a lot of people struggle also with the texture. That like, slight jellied, jellied consistency is not for everyone.

[00:19:07]

[00:19:07] George: I think that’s fair. The first time I had a Daifuku as well, which is like mochi or pounded rice, that’s quite like squishy on the outside and then red bean paste with usually something else, like maybe steamed chestnut, or a strawberry, or a piece of tangerine, or something inside. Like the first time I had one of those, like, I had to eat one and then kind of think about it before I knew whether I enjoyed it or not, because there’s so many textures and flavors going on there, that I’ve never had before, because this is a very Japanese sweet, and I wasn’t sure whether I liked it or not. But then eventually it’s become one of my favorite of all Japanese sweets. Having this kind of, this, this Daifuku and the texture is something that I enjoy not only in Japanese sweets, but other foods as well now. So yeah, but it was very like unusual at the beginning.

[00:20:10] Kirstine: Like just can I ask you how you feel with a lot of like other like quote unquote “Japanese textures”? Like in Japan there is a lot of like foods that are kind of slimy as well, like the use of like okra or natto, and stuff like that. How how are you with those kind of things?

[00:20:28] George: Texture wise, no problem. So I’ve already, you know, okra, I’ve had before I came to Japan. I didn’t really know it was a Japanese thing. I had it in curries and whatever else, and that was fine. Natto is a fermented bean, a soy bean, and, that, I don’t mind the texture, but it’s the flavor for me, which is not my favorite thing. So I can eat it maybe once a year, when I suddenly have a feeling, oh, I fancy natto. But apart from that, I, it’s not something I particularly enjoy. But there are other ones like there’s a mushroom which is very gold in color and, I forgot the name of it off the top of my head, but this has under the, under the caps, it has, you can see the gelatinous like material. And when you cook it, it becomes incredibly slimy. And that also delicious. So, you know, I don’t have a problem with the texture, but for natto, it’s just the flavor. Is there any of those that you you particularly enjoy, or you’re not a fan, or?

[00:21:40] Kirstine: The, just, just asking because that’s something that I struggle with a little bit, like. But I want to overcome that.

[00:21:52] George: I you don’t have to. There’s plenty of people in Japan who don’t like it as well.

[00:21:56] Kirstine: For sure. You don’t have to. But I can also kind of, you know, see the appeal in certain contexts. Like, I’ve had a cold soba dish in Yamagata, in that, like, in the summertime where, with a cold soba soup and then with the lots of, like, mountain vegetables, and, also very thinly cut okra that creates, like a really slimy texture to the whole soup base, that is cold, making it like. I think the point is that it feels more hydrating when it’s like gelatinous or like it kind of serves a purpose in that context. And then I, it’s a little bit more agreeable for me. I don’t know. I like, I just like the idea of being able to eat everything. So when there’s something I don’t like, I kind of want to push through it a little until, like, I’ve gotten used to it.

[00:22:51] Kirstine: Well, fair enough. I mean, if that’s if that’s, you go for it, if that’s what you want to do. I mean, no problem with that. I think tororo is always one that I, when the first time I had it, I had no idea what I ordered. And it arrived on the side of a rice dish. And tororo is just a potato that’s raw, that has been grated and it’s particularly slimy potato. And so when you have it as tororo, it’s just this like white slimy mixture in a bowl, which does not look particularly appetizing. But if you mix that in with your rice, very delicious! So just, you know, things like that, it’s, you don’t find that so many other places, but if you, if you just just give it a go and combine it with other things, then it’s also pretty good.
So, right, let’s get back to tea for a second. What is your favorite tea? Where do you drink it? And who are you with?

[00:23:48] Kirstine: I think that my favorite tea would be, like my favorite overall, tea, depending, like no matter context, will be hojicha. Good hojicha just kind of fits all occasions, in my opinion. So I’ve had a lot of really like, when you said like where are you and who are you with, i just think a lot about being under a kotatsu [low, wooden table covered by a blanket] in Obubu House, with the people of of of Obubu House, like other people appreciating tea, but like Hojicha is so incredibly fast to brew, and like it’s not fussy in any way and it’s just comforting and really nice. I think that’s, for me, is like the epitome of like what good tea is. Like it’s it’s just comforting, easy to to share with lots of people.

[00:24:47] George: Nice! I think that’s a lovely answer and I think that hojicha is underrepresented. So I’m sure the people who love Hojicha will be very happy about that.

[00:25:00] Kirstine: I am a proud representative of the Hojicha supporting community.

[00:25:06] George: Do you? Excellent, excellent. I yeah. And they will be appreciative of that. Do you, do you have a particular favorite hojicha, or is there something you look for in a hojicha?

[00:25:17] Kirstine: I like, well, I’ve had a lot of like like hojicha made with kukicha. But to be honest, that’s, now it’s no longer my favorite. But it’s hard for me to say exactly what I’m looking for in a good hojicha, but I know when I taste it, like, I’m, like, I know when I think it’s a good hojicha. And I think there’s so such a big difference between hojichas.

[00:25:48] George: Do you have any examples of a particular one you’ve enjoyed?

[00:25:52] Kirstine: Like, the thing is, like, Obubu’s Basic Roast Hojicha, I, I love, I think it’s just the perfect, like, I think it’s a perfect tea. But I’ve had so many good hojicha also bought at Wazuka-cha café, and there’s one in particular that I wanted to buy from Japan the last time I was there. It’s Miwako’s, from Obubu, favourite as well, so, I can’t remember the name, but she will for sure know. But she has excellent taste in hojicha. She’s provided lots of good hojicha for Obubu House like.

[00:26:35] George: So, if you need good hojicha you need to ask Miwako Kita of Obubu.

[00:26:39] Kirstine: Yeah,

[00:26:40] George: Okay.

[00:26:40] Kirstine: Yeah. I don’t know if she’s as passionate about hojicha as me, but but she just has a lot of good hojicha, that’s like donated lots of good hojicha to Obubu House.

[00:26:51]

[00:26:51] George: That’s very nice. Okay, those are good recommendations. I will be sure to to add those in. And we can also add in links of the Wagashi books if you are able to, to share the titles of those, if people want to have a look at those too. Speaking of books, what is the book or books you’ve given most as a gift and why? Or alternatively, if you haven’t got an answer for that, what a 1 to 3 books that have greatly influenced your life.

[00:27:20] Kirstine: Well, there is a book that I have gifted to other people. But sometimes I think it’s tricky to to gift books to people. Just because I think it would be, I think it’s, it’s a little bit nerve wracking. Like, if it’s something that matters a lot to me and I give it to other people, I would want them to have like, the same life changing experience that I had with something. And of course, you can’t expect that from people. So I feel like giving books can sometimes be a little bit vulnerable, like if they don’t get around to reading it or like, which is totally fair, then it just feels like a little piece of me that I’m like putting out in front to them. And then, yeah, it just can feel very vulnerable. But there is like one book that really comes to mind, which is like a really, really short novel called “Naïve. Super” by a Norwegian writer called Erlend Loe. And it just is like, I think it’s a really good book for a lot of people in their 20s. It’s like a book about a young guy in Norway who’s, he’s, he’s 25. I think he lives, like, in a in a small town. And during, like, a tournament of, like, cricket. Is it called cricket?

[00:28:56] George: Croquet?

[00:28:57] Kirstine: He. Croquet? Yes, croquet. He, he loses a game of croquet to his older brother, and this sends him into grave depression, basically, but, or at least like, like a big existential crisis. It’s not so much about the game, but, but it’s just about, like, being in your 20s and being a bit lost. And he starts to create all of these lists, which is a massive part of the book. Like, he makes lists of the things that he has and the things that he wants and animals that he’s seen. It’s like all, all kinds of lists, I think, to a lot of people can be, it’s a very funny book and to me at least, also quite relatable, I would say. I like, I like lists. Right now I’m, for that reason, I’m reading a book I was I was recommended by a friend called the “The Pillow Book”. So it’s like one of the first pieces of Japanese literature. Do you know it?

[00:30:06] George: I don’t. I don’t know.

[00:30:07] Kirstine: So it’s, you know, like some of the first Japanese fiction was written by a female author, and this is by Sei Shōnagon. And she was like like a lady at the Japanese court, like around year 800 or something like that. She also makes lists. She makes lists of, like things that are embarrassing or like hateful things. Things that makes the heart beat faster or stuff like that. And it’s it’s also really, really fun. There’s something really great about this. I don’t know if I have three books, but but that one in particular is like one that I have given to people on several occasions.

[00:30:53] George: That’s a good, that’s a good answer. It’s a, it sounds like a good book to give people to help them with some, an outlet for some of their concerns as they’re growing up. That’s amazing. Well, I don’t know how I would answer that question, but that was a nice answer.

[00:31:12]

[00:31:12] Kirstine: But you, you will have to think about it, the more times you’re asking for it.

[00:31:17] George: It’s true, but I, I don’t know if I necessarily have answers to these questions. I might ask them, but they’re very difficult questions. So I don’t know whether I have answers for all of them yet. But, I definitely, the next one, I’m sure I could answer too, but. What tea related purchase of 100 euros/dollars/pounds more or less, have you most enjoyed in the last six months or in recent memory? If you can give us much detail about it as possible, that’d be great.

[00:31:48] Kirstine: Yes, that I can. Okay, okay. I went to Paris about two weeks ago.

[00:31:56] George: Oh, wow. You did.

[00:31:57] Kirstine: And I bought, and it became very much a tea trip for me, like, I just. Since Copenhagen is still incredibly limited when it comes to, like, tea houses, like France has, or like at least Paris has a little bit more variety. So I went to a bunch of tea places, but there was two tea places where I made some little bit extravagant purchases, I think. And one of them is called I want to find the French, the French name. So one of them is “Terre de Chine”, I guess the “Land of China” or the “World of China”. And the other one is called in English, “The House of the Three Teas”, or in, in French, “Maison des Trois Thés”, which is a Taiwanese tea shop. I don’t know much about either Chinese tea or Taiwanese tea, so this was a very attractive to me, and I made some expensive oolong purchases that I have since really, really enjoyed. So I, I might just find them because I don’t know if I, I cannot remember the names of anything. And like, my Chinese pronunciation skills are non-existent.

[00:33:31] George: Okay, go for it. So.

[00:33:35] Kirstine: Is it like a green, greenish Taiwanese oolong?

[00:33:40] George: Wow.

[00:33:42] Kirstine: That smells like, as a specific flower.

[00:33:46] George: Okay, go for it.

[00:33:48] Kirstine: That it really, really smells like. And I don’t often have those, like, very specific associations with, like, aromas. But this one I really feel like is, oh, it’s lilacs.

[00:34:00] George: It smells like lilac. Oh, wow.

[00:34:02] Kirstine: That’s so nice.

[00:34:05] George: And that’s that’s a natural, natural aroma that it’s,that’s not like perfumed or anything, is it?

[00:34:10] Kirstine: Oh no no no no, it’s just.

[00:34:13] George: Tea is wonderful, isn’t it?

[00:34:16] Kirstine: It’s so, it makes no sense to me. I don’t understand it. Then at “Terre de Chine”, I bought some, this was less extravagant, but I bought some Dao Ren Mao Feng.

[00:34:29] George: Okay. Yeah.

[00:34:31] Kirstine: And then I also from the same place I bought Longjing. And then from the Taiwanese place, I bought another oolong, a little bit extravagant.

[00:34:42] George: Oh yeah.

[00:34:43] Kirstine: It was I guess. So what was the.

[00:34:47] George: Is it around €100.

[00:34:49] Kirstine: So okay. These two together were €87.

[00:34:53] George: Wow. Okay. So nice teas

[00:34:56] Kirstine: Very, very nice teas.

[00:34:58] Kirstine: But if you can enjoy them and, you know, judging on the size of the bags, and I think the Taiwanese one is probably rolled, if I’m not mistaken. There’s quite a lot of tea there, so you’re going to be able to enjoy that and dip into it over the course of years. You know, you don’t have to drink it all super quickly. So.

[00:35:19] Kirstine: Yeah. But I’m so, can I throw that question back at you? Because I’m really, curious. Have you bought like anything like related in the last six months, like that was a little bit more like extravagant?

[00:35:31] George: Yeah. I mean, working working in tea. I’m always, like, interested in different teaware and different teas and always I, you know, go to different tea events. So there’s always lots of opportunity for me to, to buy tea stuff. So more it’s more a case of holding myself back, you know, because I can always excuse it with, oh, you know, it’s for work. I need to look into this, you know, so it’s very easy for me to give myself a pass for lots of different things. So actually I probably buy a couple of teapots a year now. That’s, I’ve had to scale that back because the cupboard is starting to fill up. So there’s a teapot I’m actually using now, which I bought earlier this year, which is my current favourite teapot by my current favourite potter, which I will show you.

[00:36:28] Kirstine: Oh yeah. Yeah yeah yeah.

[00:36:30] George: So I don’t know if I’ve shown you this before.

[00:36:32] Kirstine: But no, I have not.

[00:36:34] George: No. So the lid is very smooth and the body of the teapot has this, like skin, there’s a particular name for it. It’s a special technique that when they’re pulling the pot on the wheel, they don’t use the outside finger digit to support the clay. And if you do that, it kind of maintains the consistency of the clay throughout. Instead, what they do is they just use the thumb on the inside and just pull it up with the thumb on the inside, which means that it splits and breaks into that. Those cracks form on the outside of the teapot, and it’s not very deep cracks. They’re just kind of pressure, like fissures and that, that then dries in the kiln like that. And if the teapot doesn’t make it, the teapot doesn’t make it. But if it does make it, it kind of, it looks like that. And it has a this is a particularly square pot. It’s not perfectly square, but it’s more square. It’s a little bit taller. So it’s quite squat. It looks like a cube with its corners cut off and smoothed out a little bit. And I really like the juxtaposition of the outside of this pot being like, kind of covered in little cracks. And then the pot lid is perfectly smooth. So I like that kind of combination of textures. And it’s a kyusu, which is a side pour style, so it all just fits quite nicely in the hand. And this is my second pot from the same potter. And so I have two pots of this design, and I find that these pots work really nicely with oxidized teas. So this is probably my my favorite purchase. It’s a bit over budget. I think it was like, oh, maybe it’s not actually given the exchange rate at the moment, but it was like maybe ¥16,000, something like that. So it’s a little bit over budget. But, given the poor exchange rate, I think it’s well within range. So it’s that’s that’s probably my favorite. I also bought a, another piece of teaware recently, which I was drinking with earlier today, which was from a Shigaraki Festival pottery festival that happened a couple of weeks ago. And it is a tea matcha bowl, a matchawan, which I have not seen like this before, where it’s got a glaze on the inside so it doesn’t affect the flavor of the tea. So it’s a nice like white blue, like a teal, very light teal glaze on the inside, and then the outside glaze has been mixed with powdered silver. So it looks like it’s metal on the outside because it has like it’s not perfectly shiny. It’s like a matte silver on the outside. And so the effect of it when you’re drinking from it is quite funny because it looks like kind of space age, but, and when you’re drinking from it, it’s very nice to drink from because it’s kind of glazed and it doesn’t have, it has quite a sharp lip to it. I quite like sharp edges on the lip, so you have a clean drinking experience, but just personal feeling. However, I didn’t really think about it before I bought it. But silver is an excellent conductor of heat, so when you’re holding the bowl, if you’re using very hot water, the entire bowl becomes scalding hot. So it’s not the most ideal piece of teaware, but I feel like it’s a nice winter style tea bowl.

[00:40:19] Kirstine: So yeah, okay. But I would love to see at some point.

[00:40:24] Kirstine: Yeah. Of course. I mean, maybe at the end of the call I can go and grab it and I’ll show you, but it’s. But, again, like, I wouldn’t, maybe it’s just because I’m a bit thick sometimes and don’t think things through, but, you know, I wouldn’t have known that unless I physically tried it. I just bought it and thought, oh, that looks great. Oh, silver? That’s really interesting. I’ve not seen a bowl like that before. Like, I’d love to try it. And it really wasn’t the most expensive bowl. There’s a lot more expensive bowls, it was ¥7,000. So I thought, okay, that’s a reasonable price for a tea bowl with a unique design I’ve not seen before. You know, it’s all handmade. The potter has come up with this glaze. He spent the time producing this teaware, so I feel that’s a reasonable price. And so, I, so, but I, you know, I didn’t think about the, the heat, the heat transfer. I didn’t think about physics. You got to think about physics when you’re buying teaware. This is what I keep saying to myself. So but yeah, silly silly decision. But it you know, it was very interesting. And when people come to the house or I do tea sessions with people, I like to have very different teaware so that, you know, people can kind of choose and try out different things. I think it’s an enjoyable part of the tea experience.

[00:41:45] Kirstine: For sure. For sure. Or you could choose for them like, oh, this is like very much a you-bowl.

[00:41:52] George: Well, I sometimes do that, you know, when people come over and like we’ll sit down and I offer them some matcha, and I’ll pre-select the bowls because I have a feeling of which bowls they might enjoy. And, you know, you get as a host, you get quite a lot of pleasure out of selecting the bowls for the guests that you’re welcoming, knowing that they might enjoy this particular combination of teaware or sweets or, you know, it’s part of the enjoyment from the host side.

[00:42:17] Kirstine: Yeah, but I know that. So, like, at the teahouse where I work, there is like a C-shaped bar that people can sit at and have their tea, and on the back, like so, the tea brewer will be standing in the middle so that it’s like you’re kind of on display. But on the back wall there is like a shelves with matchawan. And I also really enjoy that when people are ordering matcha that they can get to choose, you know, like they can choose the bowl that somehow speaks to them. And then I like building a little tray around that, you know, like that, like matchy matchy, but like, almost the opposites. But like, then if we serve the matcha with, like, a little, like glass of cold brew tea or like a little snack or something like that, it’s such a massive part of the enjoyment for me to like put those things together. Like it’s, it’s just such an important part of the experience.

[00:43:19] George: I think there’s, it’s another example of how no matter what part of the process you play, in the enjoyment, in in the industry of tea, there’s always a lot of enjoyment to find.

[00:43:33] Kirstine: Yeah.

[00:43:34] George: So no matter where you are in the, in the, you know, from, from cultivation through to the consumer side and drinking the tea, like whatever part of the supply chain you play, there’s a lot of enjoyment there, whether you’re even if you’re wholesalers where you feel, you know, there’s just a bunch of paperwork, maybe, and you’re just transporting tea from place A to place B, you still have to do the tasting, you still have to think about the flavors, think about the changes year to year, taste and record the differences you’re tasting from the different areas, like you can still, there’s. That in itself is fascinating, so.

[00:44:14]

[00:44:14] Kirstine: And will always be like, like, since it is like an agricultural product, it will always like be forced to adapt to to nature and the changing of the seasons. So like, what is available will always be constricted by, by those like factors or elements as well, which is, you know, I think those constrictions are quite, quite good and it keeps it interesting. Not that you like, of course, you can have tea at all times of year, but it still is connected to the cycle of nature, which is such a pleasant thing.

[00:45:02] George: I think a lot of the time these kind of constrictions, whether they’re ones self-imposed or environment imposed, create a lot of innovation and creativity. You know, we mentioned at a different time, not during this conversation, but during a previous one, about the role that an electric chagama plays, you know, and yes, it’s much more simple to have another water boiling device, which is electric. So why do we have an electric chagama, which is an old iron pot then heated below by a hot metal coil? You know, incredibly inefficient if we want to be saving energy and focused on the efficiency of boiling water. But the constrictions placed upon something like tea ceremony dictate “you need a chagama” or “you need a tetsubin”. So we have to compromise with some other way. And so the compromise that was found was an electric version of the charcoal, to the point where even the, this particular device which heats is made to look like charcoal. So, you know, the constrictions placed upon a situation can often form beautiful things because of the constrictions.

[00:46:20] Kirstine: Thank you. Like, I really, really agree. I think that you you managed to sum up the essence of that really well, right? Yeah.

[00:46:30] George: It’s I think one of the things that’s happened in Japan is, you know, maintaining the culture over a long period of time, like you have to think of new ways to do the same thing but improve it somehow. And that’s what’s caused so many awesome things to come out.

[00:46:45] Kirstine: Yeah. You’re able to maintain heritage, but like adjust it to still work in the present. Even if it becomes like, a little bit comical, you know. But it’s also, if you can just acknowledge it, it’s nice like in, in, when you have like a chagama with an electrical cord, it also just becomes like a little bit of a joke, you know. Like, oh, okay, this is something we can show how like, this very traditional water heater, but we made it slightly more efficient with this cord. You know, it’s just those things that don’t go together are just very funny.

[00:47:22] George: I think it’s also a way to give a nod to history and appreciate the people that came before by maintaining some of the things the same, but also finding ways to bring it into the modern era, so you don’t lose it, but you just change it slightly to, to fit the, the current context.

[00:47:41] Kirstine: Yeah.

[00:47:42] George: Okay. So I do have a tea question for you, and this is probably an easy one for you to answer. How often are you drinking tea per day or per week? And what is your most regularly drunk tea?

[00:47:53] Kirstine: I drink tea every day. Like all through the day, basically. Like my, my time right now is split between writing my thesis at university and working at the tea house. So at the tea house, it comes naturally that I’m just brewing tea for people all the time, so I will always be tasting the tea before I serve it to people. We will always have a tea at the tea house that we’re just drinking ourselves. There will, there is just like a continuous non-stopping brewing of tea and drinking. And then when I’m at home it will be pure different varieties, but I will always drink like three different teas, at least in a day. And then like the one that I drink the most, especially because it tends to have a lower caffeine content is hojicha. So I’m not overly worried about caffeine intake, but of course if I am working late at night, is is my, is my go to just so that I will be able to sleep as well.

[00:49:00] George: It’s a nice answer. It’s, I’m always curious because sometimes there are some very different answers. And yeah, there are some people that I’ve spoken to who don’t drink tea every week. So and it’s for them something that they will not drink tea every day. And then when they do drink tea, they’ll spend, they’ll do it very seriously. They’ll set aside half a day. And this is when they’re focusing on drinking tea and the enjoyment of tea.

[00:49:32] Kirstine: Like a meditation. Like a very intentional tea brewing time? Yeah. I understand that. I get that.

[00:49:43] George: This is a break from a or not a break, but just the time spent away from their current life and they go and spend some time with tea, and then they then they come back like a mini retreat.

[00:49:57] Kirstine: But the idea of that is also just so lovely. But for me, tea is also, I think I love that tea can have kind of both, you know, depending on contexts, you know, like you can brew like a massive cup that you can let grow like, like you can let it go cold and you can just sip on it while you’re working and it becomes like a companion while you are, like doing computer stuff or whatever. And then it can also be this like thing that forces you to be incredibly present. Like that you should be focused. And if it’s like a fussy tea like gyokuro, or something where you have to observe the leaves and like be aware of timing and stuff like that and water temperature. It’s, it’s beautiful that it can have both in it. I don’t think that one is more important than the other, but for me it is also like just an everyday beverage. For me, it’s also just something that I enjoy throughout the day. Sometimes I’m more conscious of it and sometimes less so. But it’s like still there as a companion, kind of.

[00:51:07] George: What is what what makes a good tea for you. If you taste the tea or when would you go, oh, this is a good tea. Like what are the criteria for you?

[00:51:18] Kirstine: That is that is a good question. That’s a very good question because.

[00:51:24] George: Because it’s not that it has to be a particular kind of tea. Not green tea, not black tea, not oolong, not yellow or blue.

[00:51:33] Kirstine: It doesn’t have to be warm. It doesn’t have to be. It’s like that’s like it’s. Automatically I’m thinking about like the characteristics of specific teas that make them good. Like because my entry into tea was Japanese tea, I feel like the focus in Japanese tea can be a lot about like flavor and mouthfeel. Whereas like then for example, some of the oolong teas that I bought, they were so aroma forward, that was like almost overwhelming. But again, that’s not really saying anything general about when a tea is good. And like, I feel like tea is also like, like an emote, things like very physically, and that can be context dependent. But sometimes what you want is like some, like, a tea that is, is, is warming or like calming. And sometimes you want a tea that is more energizing and like vibrant. And a good tea, I guess, can be something that is able to give you the feeling that you’re seeking. Like that will be like incredibly individual.

[00:52:51] George: Very specific to a moment as well.

[00:52:54] Kirstine: Exactly, exactly. Yeah.

[00:52:58] George: That’s a good tea. That’s tricky because it will be different on every single day for you.

[00:53:02] Kirstine: Yeah, I know.

[00:53:04] George: That’s tough. That’s a tough gig.

[00:53:07] Kirstine: And what is a bad tea? Oh.

[00:53:09] George: You’re asking me?

[00:53:10] Kirstine: Yeah, I’m asking you.

[00:53:11] George: Okay. For me, a bad tea is one which has, firstly, aromas that are unpleasant. If it has an unpleasant aroma I do not like, then that for me is, I can’t, i can’t do it. That’s a bad tea for me. If someone else might enjoy that, but probably not, because I’m pretty open when it comes to teas. So that’s number one. Number two is if it’s overly overly astringent without a redeeming quality, then that’s another one for me, that’ll that’ll be a bit tough. There’s another one, which is not bad. It’s not a bad tea. It’s just a tea that I’m struggling to, or a sensation or a flavor that I’m struggling to find appreciation for, which is sourness. Sourness in tea. I struggle a little bit with that, and there are some teas which I can deal with more, deal with that more than others. But sourness and tea for me it just feels a bit strange. Like it’s for me, it’s not meant to go so much together. But often, or the teas that are sour, which I do enjoy, the redeeming factor they have is a really interesting aroma, typically paired with a sweeter or fruity aftertaste. If they have that, I can get over the sourness in the in the body of the tea. But if they don’t, then I can understand someone else might enjoy that, but it’s just not my my favorite thing.

[00:54:42] Kirstine: Fair enough. You see, I love that.

[00:54:44] George: Yeah. Right. There’s a lot of people that do. A lot of people that do. But it’s just it’s not my favorite.

[00:54:51] Kirstine: What about, like, sourness? And have you ever had, like, a sour beer or something like that?

[00:54:55] George: Yeah, I love that. I love sour stuff, I love lemons, I love all of those things. But I just for tea. Tea is not that for me. So.

[00:55:05] Kirstine: Fair enough.

[00:55:08] George: I don’t know, it’s a bit bad, but that’s just personal preference. But I don’t hold it against anyone. And you know, on top of that, just as a, just to defend or, to defend myself slightly in advance, I’ll be going to Kamikatsu next weekend, which is the the hometown of Awabancha, so.

[00:55:27] Kirstine: That’s so great.

[00:55:28] George: Which is a post-fermented or it’s a fermented tea from Shikoku Island, Japan. So, you know, I’m not the biggest fan of sour teas, but I’m going, I’m trying, I’m trying, I’m trying to educate myself. So.

[00:55:46] Kirstine: Exposure therapy.

[00:55:47] George: Right. Exactly. So, so I mean, that kind of happened for me with Puerh too. You know, I went, I didn’t go with the intention to China searching for Puerh. I went with the intention of black tea, but I discovered a new found love for Puerh while I was there. So there’s sometimes this, you get greater appreciation by traveling to the places and seeing the processing and learning the, what goes on into the production of this particular product, wherever you are. And that gives you a greater appreciation when you’re drinking the tea. So, you know, I can see that happening here with Awabancha as well. Just one sour flavor tea, which maybe I can get on board with, but I’ll keep you updated on that.

[00:56:34] Kirstine: All right. Okay. I’m very excited. I will look forward to that. I kind of feel like that with Shu Puerh for me.

[00:56:40] George: Oh, really?

[00:56:41] Kirstine: Really has, like, a feeling like, I can drink it, and I can also understand the appeal in, like, certain contexts, like on a rainy day. Like I get that it kind of fits the mood, but it really, like, reminds me of being a child, being exposed to like, a coffee and like, like it’s not that Shu Puerh is like inherently bitter or anything like that, like coffee is when you’re like a child trying it, but it feels somehow a bit adult to me, like tobacco or in a way that is just like out of reach for me right now.

[00:57:19] George: I think we have to introduce you to my favorite Shu Puerh, because it is the best Shu Puerh I’ve ever had. And it is creamy. It is dark. I’ve never seen a darker tea. It is like almost pitch black. It’s darker than any coffee I’ve seen and it is creamy, sweet, mellow, like a warm hug for me. Like it inhabits the same emotions that, invokes the same feelings that that Hojicha has. So when you said you don’t like it, I’m quite surprised because, yeah, it’s, for me that’s a perfect match for you, just with a slightly more bold body. So in my mind, you would love Shu Puerh, but you just need to find the right ones. Because I do agree, there’s some real funky stuff out there. So real funky stuff. So this trip to China changed my mind on a lot of things about Puerh. So, I think I have a very good one for you. And when cold, it tastes like watermelon. So yeah, mind blowing stuff. But it’s tea is this crazy thing where you can get so many different interesting flavors and texture profiles and all sorts. So, you know, I wouldn’t write off any one particular type of tea because I know that there’s someone out there making it in a way that I probably really enjoy.

[00:58:48] Kirstine: For sure. I think it’s like I have like a flaw, like when working in the tea house, I continue to be so enthusiastic about all the things that tea can be that I feel a massive need to share this enthusiasm, which also means that sometimes I think I can overwhelm people by wanting to, like, offer them a lot of things to to draw them in. You know, I want to like let them experience all the things that tea can be. I like offering them all these little, like, samples of different teas, you know, just like introducing them to the the grand spectrum of what tea can be. But you know, like, you, it’s, it’s not the best way to approach it, I think, because then you can also sometimes like overwhelm your palate a bit and all kind of models together. But it’s just I don’t know, I feel like sometimes, like, when people come in and they’re a little bit interested, it feels like a, like my job to just broaden that horizon as fast as humanly possible, which maybe not always is the case in reality.

[01:00:03]

[01:00:03] Kirstine: I think as an, you have just wonderful intentions for sure.

[01:00:08] Kirstine: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, like, the intentions are nice, but you know how you do things.

[01:00:16] George: Sometimes I think about it when, because working with Japanese tea every day, like, I can easily taste my way through, like, ten different sencha in a tasting session, because I’m not drinking a huge amount, and it’s not like a full cups of tea. I’m just sampling them. But I can do that, and I would never have been able to do that when I first got into Japanese tea. And it’s easy for me to forget that when it comes to introducing new teas to people. So I had a good reminder of this when I went, when I, when I go to other tea producing countries where I’m not familiar so much with those teas, and I sit down to do a tea tasting session with somebody, and after the third tea, I’m like “oh, my taste buds are gone”. I’m like, I can’t, I’m not able to kind of get the differences because probably the volumes of tea that we’re drinking, but also, you know, that there’s so many different flavors. I’m struggling to know where to look for these flavors in each tea. So if that makes sense, where to look. I don’t know whether that makes sense or not, but.

[01:01:26] Kirstine: Oh, no. At least I think I get it, like. No, no, I think I follow you.

[01:01:31] George: So. Yeah. But like, if I had to do this for coffee, dude. Not a chance. I would maybe have, maybe two coffees that I could go: “Oh, yeah. Okay. I can taste the differences”, but then that’s it. Like, it’d be a struggle. It would be a struggle. Okay.

[01:01:49] Kirstine: It’s in a different way. Right. So, yeah.

[01:01:52] George: I’m very much tea, tea, tea focused. But, you know, coffee’s not, not against coffee.

[01:01:58] Kirstine: Oh, no. No.

[01:01:59] George: I love a good coffee. So what is an unusual habit or strange thing that you enjoy?

[01:02:06] Kirstine: I think it took me a while to, like, figure out that this was a weird thing, that this would be something that not a lot of people like to do. So I will stick with that, with that. But I, I really, really appreciate, but, I love to go out to restaurants, like it’s something I can look forward to for weeks, and it’s something that I’m very willing to spend money on. It’s like some of the best experiences. And, like, when traveling, like it’s my favorite form of sightseeing, would be for food as well. But part of the enjoyment for me is also like just the anticipation. And part of that anticipation can also be to just do like a research. So like, I love reading restaurant menus online, like, like, and just like kind of imagining what the combinations are going to be like so often like little bit more, more modern or a little bit posh restaurants, they don’t even, like write the names of dishes. Like sometimes they will just like write four ingredients in order and that will be the dish. And that can be very exciting for me, like to kind of imagine what that will taste like. So it could be like smoke corn, walnuts, rabbit and then like you have no idea how they’re going to like execute that. But I don’t know, it just, there’s like that anticipation of like what flavors will be like that is like really enjoyable for me. And then maybe, I don’t know, maybe it’s a bit unusual.

[01:03:59] George: So when did you, when did you first start doing this?

[01:04:06] Kirstine: Like a long time. I remember just when I moved to Copenhagen and I was, like, 18 years old. I had a I was still we’re still friends and we still go out to dinner, but it’s not like I had a lot of money, but the money that I had, I would use and save up that for restaurants with the friends. So ever since then, like we would, we would pick a place and like sometimes like rather posh places. And we’re just like these, like teenagers going to to to fancy restaurants. So like, yeah, I don’t know, since, like, beginning of my adult life, like when I was like 18 or so. But also maybe also before that, even, like if I was to go to a restaurant with my mom and her partner, I would also just enjoy looking up like the food in advance, even if the menu changes, like, even if it’s been a different one, like when I arrive, it’s not super important. That’s okay, but.

[01:05:05] George: That’s cool. Do you and this this. Have you found this translating as you’ve moved into the tea industry? Like, do you find yourself going to tea shops or cafes and doing the same thing for those places as well?

[01:05:21] Kirstine: Sure. Definitely. But sometimes it can be a bit more tricky. Like, maybe if it’s like a specific tea type or something that I haven’t tried before. I don’t know. It can be hard for me, like, you know, I don’t get the same. It’s hard for me to imagine it in the same way. But for example, in Kyoto, there is a place called “Garden Lab”, that is like a tea place that also serve tea based cocktails. And like, reading about those is the exact same kind of enjoyment of like, the ingredients there. Always super fun. Like very entertaining.

[01:06:01] George: Very nice guy behind the bar as well. There’s a few guys that work there that are very cool, I think. Kay. Kay-san. He is one of the guys.

[01:06:12] Kirstine: And that’s just across from, like, a coffee place that lives, like, in perfect synergy.

[01:06:16] George: Perfect harmony.

[01:06:19] Kirstine: Harmony? Okay. Not synergy. Yeah.

[01:06:21] George: Synergy as well I think. But there’s Kay-san is one of the guys that runs it. And also there’s an Irish guy that does the cocktails, I’m sure, have you met him before? I forget his name.

[01:06:35] Kirstine: No, I don’t think so.

[01:06:36] He designed the cocktail list. I’m not sure whether he’s still there, but when they were just opening, I went there with Haruka, who was sourcing a lot of their teas, and, I forget his name, but there was an Irish guy behind the bar who was, like, putting together the cocktail list and designing their tea cocktails behind the bar, and it was very cool, very, very cool. Speaking of tea and drinks, actually, over the summer time, I was able to taste Fortnum and Mason’s sparkling tea, which is like a champagne but made with tea. And it is wonderful.

[01:07:17] Kirstine: It looks so good!

[01:07:18] George: It is delicious. Zero alcohol and very tasty. And I would happily drink that over, over, champagne. It was very good. So, Fortnum and Mason, sparkling tea. If you can get some. I strongly recommend to try with some friends, and it’s very nice.

[01:07:39] Kirstine: That sounds super good. Have you ever, so, like, what kind of tea are they using?

[01:07:47] George: I’ve got to be honest, I’m not sure, but it’s, I think that’s, where for those for those who are just, for those listening, you know, we are doing this call online, so we have the blessing of the internet, and I can search things at the same time. Hold on. It’s very clicky keyboard. I’m sorry. 0% alcohol. Darjeeling.

[01:08:15] Kirstine: Okay.

[01:08:16] George: So I mean, it makes sense given the history of the UK. And it’s £20 a bottle, so it’s not the cheapest, but also if you’re comparing it to champagne, I mean, definitely not the most expensive. So bargain. So yeah, so “sparkling tea and a certified organic blend inspired by eight of our famous and rare brews. Contains 0% alcohol with complex flavours and layers. Notes of tropical fruits on the nose proceed a palette of lemongrass, water mint and Darjeeling leading to dry tannins and a long tasting hint of jasmine on the finish.” It’s wonderful.

[01:09:02] Kirstine: So like, I’m always so impressed with like those kind of descriptions as well. Like when people are like able to detect so many things in, I don’t know, for me, that is like a little bit intimidating. Like when people are able to detect so many, like, flavor notes and aromas and like, describe them so accurately or like. But of course, it also kind of it’s a double edged sword, right? Because it can also affect like your own perception of something. I think we’re incredibly susceptible to that.

[01:09:38] George: I think for me, when when I want to do something like that, when I’m looking at a tea, and tasting a tea, and trying to write flavor notes, I will have to have a flavor wheel sat in front of me. And often I can pick out like, this is not something that I’m super strong in, so I do need the help of something like a flavor wheel to look at, to try and help me, but I can pick out the categories and then as soon as I am like, okay, I found that category, then I can then dive into like the finer notes and check through, like, is it this, this, this, this, this. No. And then eventually I find the thing that I’m like yes, that’s what I’m, that’s what I’m tasting and that’s what I’m smelling. Then like, this really helps me to kind of develop the flavor notes for the tea. So, but other people like you know, we both know Pau, I’ve also interviewed Pau, and he’s like always immediately picking out flavor profiles of teas. So, it’s, it is a cool thing to see people do. And sometimes when you’re tasting the same tea with them, and this is the wonderful thing about flavors is that everybody detects different things. So, and, we all have our own different senses which have had different training over our lifetimes, so, which is our tongue. And we can then find different flavors despite tasting the exact same thing. So, it happens. Yes. My recommendation. Taste this. It tastes delicious.

[01:11:10] Kirstine: Sure, for sure.

[01:11:12] George: But it does have caffeine, so be careful. 150mg per one liter. So if you drink a liter, please be careful. It’s quite a lot. Okay. So let’s, I’ve got another question for you. What are bad recommendations you hear people giving about tea?

[01:11:27] Kirstine: Okay. Oh, maybe, so there’s something that comes to mind immediately. And I guess it doesn’t really count as a recommendation, but I really dislike when people are defining what’s right or wrong in tea. That is a massive, like, pet peeve of mine. So at the tea house, a very, very popular beverage is matcha latte. I guess that’s that’s like popular everywhere now. And and that’s super fine. And maybe, who knows, then, maybe matcha latte will be the like the pathway for certain people into other Japanese teas. And maybe it’s not. But for me, there is nothing wrong with the matcha latte. It’s not the wrong version of matcha, and I have experienced that certain people at the tea house who are super into tea, who consider this like a flaw, or something wrong, and that they just need to get to the right point, you know, where they can enjoy the real deal. And I think that this is a problematic way of looking at it. While, like, I could hope that a lot of people got super into like classic preparations of matcha. I also think it’s okay if that’s not for everybody. And at Obubu something that really, really stuck with me was the phrase that “tea is freedom”. So that’s there is not necessarily a right or wrong way of brewing. There could be a way that is wrong for you personally. But, you know, like if people really, really love intense or like incredibly bitter tea, then that’s not wrong in my opinion. I think that’s if you’re not going to listen to your own sense of enjoyment, then the whole point of of it goes off. So again, it doesn’t really qualify maybe as, as advice, but like when people are guiding other people in the world of tea, I think it’s problematic if we’re very polarized in what is like right and wrong when it comes to tea. I think the beauty of tea is also that it is very subjective.

[01:14:02] George: I think it’s wonderful. I mean, I just wanted to hear the whole thought process through, the thought process through. So that’s. No, I think it’s a it’s a really good point and something that really resonates with me as well. And whenever we have guests, I always tell them there’s no right and wrong way to do things with tea. It’s whatever you prefer. So. Well, sometimes, and I can look back on my my own time and think yes, I was a bit of a tea snob and saying there’s definitely right and wrong ways to do things. And I feel like some sometimes people fall into the, into the, into the trap, into the easy route of denigrating other teas, like saying negative things about other ways of doing things to promote the way that you’re doing things or the way you believe people should be doing things. And I don’t think that’s the right way to go about things, because you could end up alienating people who you could have a lot of, you know, in common with passion for tea. So yeah.

[01:15:06] It’s also just, yeah, it’s a negative way, I think it’s also deterring a lot of people from like entering the world of tea. If it’s like if it becomes somewhat elitist or snobby, whereas, like, maybe people who could eventually start to love, like, Japanese sencha will be scared away by people who are making degrading comments about their sencha that has a flowery aromas added to it. You know, of course you can like, like educate people about what is out there and like what tea can taste like when it is like of a certain quality. Because of course, like, the aroma teas out there is not really using that high quality tea leaf necessarily, but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have a place. But you can always present people with alternatives. But we can never stop, we can never force something down the throat of other people. Will always have the opposite effect, it will always make people reject it.

[01:16:15] George: It’s a very good point. I sometimes think, oh, if I had a tea house, how would I do things? And I think it’d be hard because, you know, what I like personally might not be everybody’s ideal cup of tea. So at some point you have to be finding the, or guiding the tastes of people towards something that you believe is tasty. Or like there’s got to be a reason why people are coming to your tea house over other people, and part of the reason is you. But to bring people into your tea house, you know, you’ve got a somewhat compromise on the teas that you want to have there. Unless you are the current meter for tea, I don’t know, but, you know, that’s, sometimes I do think about that.

[01:17:07] Kirstine: Like, there’s also teas that I, when I’m guiding someone that I might try to stir them, like or, like guide them away from a little bit, but,, but I don’t want to do it in like, a blatantly like, protesting way, if that makes sense. If, if they are quite sure about what they, they want, then I also always think that that should should be available. But sometimes when you’re in the world of tea, I think you can also forget that it can also be a little bit hard to learn about it if you’re starting from scratch. Like if you’re just like presenting people with with sencha and like how to brew it, but also doing it in a gentle way so that it’s, that you can get into it without getting, like, without having a lot of gear or without, like needing like a water thermometer and like but but like slowly helping in that direction. And people can always determine themselves how geeky they want to get about it. Because like if the, if the interest is like, I don’t know, blossoming like then of course people will figure out all of these things by themselves. But I feel like the first initial step of like getting people to care a little bit more, that’s like super important.

[01:18:30] George: And what have you found works best for that, when you’re introducing new people to tea? What do you do to to foster this, the inspiration in them?

[01:18:41] Kirstine: I think, it depends so much on the person. So like it will always be dependent on what sparks their interest and what they’re already like a little bit like, what are they curious about. And then, like, kind of act upon that. Maybe also ask them about the previous things that they’ve tried, like. I think, for instance, like a product like kukicha is always like, also a good way into green tea, like that it can be quite easy to do and that it can be a bit more mild and maybe not as like necessarily super punchy, umami forward, like can be like a way of introducing a specific genre of tea. But again, it depends so much on the person. But I also just always love to do something for people, like depending on like if I have time, I will always provide people with samples of stuff like we have a menu of course, and people can buy a serving of tea, but I think I have a slightly, I don’t know, rogue habit of just like brewing tea for people without having them pay, but just so that they taste something and hopefully that spark something in them that will make them want to come back or make them want to buy tea. But like, I just want to introduce people to options. Like present them with what could be available to them.

[01:20:14] George: I think that’s a wonderful way to do. You kind of tantalize the taste buds so that they can’t stop themselves coming back for more.

[01:20:20] Kirstine: Yeah, exactly.

[01:20:23] George: Nice!

[01:20:23] Kirstine: Nice!

[01:20:25] George: Nice!. So when, if if you get past that point and somebody’s starting to really enjoy tea, what, what are, what would you recommend for an education in tea? What books or courses or experiences would you recommend?

[01:20:44] Kirstine: I am still very much, what I, like. I feel like there’s still so much that I don’t know, and the things that I know will mainly be about Japanese tea. So without a doubt the place that I have learned the most, it’s been through the Obubu internship, just because, of course, like there’s good books out there. But for me, like if you really like, if you want to go that step and you want to really get into tea and understand it, like being a part of it or seeing it in front of your own eyes makes a massive, massive difference. Otherwise, there is also a few books that I think are really, really good.

[01:21:28] George: Also, I’m sorry for the sirens and cars. If you can hear them. I don’t know if you can hear any sirens and cars in the background, but.

[01:21:36] Kirstine: Like a little bit.

[01:21:37] George: I’m sorry. This is this is Kyoto City. So this is unfortunately, the evening times are a little bit like this.

[01:21:48] Kirstine: “Japanese tea: a comprehensive guide” by Simona Suzuki. It’s amazing for, like, getting started into Japanese tea. And then in addition to that, like “Tea history, terroir and varieties”, it’s just such a, such a good, great, like, comprehensive work that also like just build like some foundation for me to understand things. That one, I continue to return to that one.

[01:22:17] George: I have the second edition of that, and I read that cover to cover after my time, or no, before my time in India and Nepal. And it’s kind of falling apart at the seams now. But it’s a it’s a really good book. It has a very good quantity of information about different places around the world and their tea production, which is cool.

[01:22:42] Kirstine: So much, so, so much. But then I also like it might be like the most obvious like thing, and it’s not the source, but I just think that brewing for yourself is like such a way of learning. Like, you can go to a lot of places and of course, like have people brew tea for you. But like, I think like diving into brewing for yourself without fear of like, failure. Super good. Like experimenting with different teaware and tea types and like, brewing methods. Like, again, not striving to find like a perfect one, but like, just like familiarizing oneself with like how tea is behaving and reacting. It’s one of the most beneficial ways of learning about tea. It’s been for me.

[01:23:31] George: Quite like when you, it’s like a type of remote tourism where you sit down and perhaps you have a book, or you are reading information about where the tea is from and the culture of the area whilst drinking the tea for the first time.

[01:23:49] Kirstine: Oh yeah.

[01:23:50] George: And you’re able to Have a sensory experience of that place whilst gaining information about that. I quite enjoy that. That’s good fun.

[01:24:01] Kirstine: Yeah. That is that is really, really nice. I like the idea of that.

[01:24:08]

[01:24:08] George: Okay. So now we’ve got a little bit of a difficult question for you. What are some problems you see in the tea industry right now. And if you could change one thing what would that be?

[01:24:17] So the thing is like you know, I’m aware of like that, there is like a lot of big structural problems in, like, the supply chain. And yet it’s not something that I personally know much about myself. So maybe if it’s okay with you, I would like to answer the question, like from a, like a, I don’t know, like a standpoint of where I am like in the industry. Because like, I said, like what I think about like in my everyday life as problems, like they’re not the biggest problems in the tea industry, like as a whole, but like something that I experience in Copenhagen. Again, it’s like very, very specific, but like working in a tea house and like kind of striving or aiming at spreading out tea culture and the habit of drinking tea for Danish people. What I see a lot is that people don’t know how to to brew tea, and that makes them like leads them to think that they don’t like tea, which I think is a big problem. So like education about how brewing affects flavor, I think is a big thing that is kind of stopping a lot of people from being potential tea lovers. And again, I’m super aware that this is like a very specific problem, like, like in where I am in the industry and like in the context of the tea house. But finding a way to let people know that that certain teas demand lower temperatures to not grow very bitter and that green tea does not, like that green tea is not necessarily bitter, this, like misconception is, is a very big problem, I feel like, in order for, like, tea drinking to spread. So again, this might not at all be the biggest problem, but it’s a problem that I’m using a lot of capacity to think about. Like, how, how we, like, how we spread this information in an effective way.

[01:26:38] George: I agree. I mean, I’ve it’s easy, easier in Japan, easier when you’re doing a tea tour because you have a captive audience who are there to listen to what you have to say. But when you’re selling tea from a cafe perspective, like, a lot of the time people will come in, buy their tea and leave, and then maybe they’re not super happy with the results they have at home, because you have no control over how they’ve brewed the tea. So boiling water five minutes, they came back and they were like “what is this? This is not very tasty”. You know, it’s understandable from our side because we know that that’s going to equal quite a bitter strong tea. So if you don’t like bitter strong tea, that’s not the way to brew. So it’s, it’s difficult. But, I was thinking about it, as you were saying, and maybe how we package tea, we should look at having a massive just in red letters across the top “Read me” just to catch people’s attention. And then underneath have clear brewing instructions. Might be a big help, so.

[01:27:43] Kirstine: Yeah, exactly. Especially because I, this is the case also, at the tea house where I work, but you can also kind of divide tea brewing into like a Western style of tea brewing, and a more Asia oriented style of tea brewing, which is in itself incredibly diverse. But, you know, like in the West, I feel like we tend to use quite big teapots and we steep our tea for quite a long time. And then a lot of people are not even aware that you could repurpose the leaves, that certain teas you could brew multiple times if you want. So we’re not very economical with our tea, and we’re not necessarily bring it in a way that is what we would think tastes the best. But we’re just we’re still like a young tea culture in Copenhagen and Denmark. So, like, how to, how to take it to the next step is really tricky and really interesting. I cannot tell you how many times people come in, look at like like a Hario teapot that we sell, like, has it can maybe hold 450ml. And people ask like, “oh, so is that for one cup?”. And, and like how I go into like a rant of like, well that depends on the size of your cup, you know, and, and like the, the, the thing is like that there’s still so many long lived like myths about how tea brewing is working and that there is like a set norm that people come in with from the get go and like kind of breaking that down a little bit. So tricky, I think.

[01:29:28] George: I wonder if there’s like a space for creating a product which is like a halfway house for people who are more familiar with like large teapot, Western style brewing. But you know, you want to introduce them to a different way of brewing with a different ratio where you have more leaf to less water. And I wonder whether there’s, you know, you’ve just posed the question that people have, where is this Hario teapot, 450ml for one cup? And, you know, questions like that are very difficult to answer. So, you know, in that I know the kind of teapot you’re talking about. And sometimes the problem that I have when brewing with this type of teapot is when you want to lift out the mesh filter to stop the brewing. Where do I put this? So I wonder if there’s like a little a side thing that comes along with the teapot so you can sit in the mesh just so you can say to people, well, actually, you can just stop the brewing and then just, you know, you have a pitcher of tea that you can pour to your heart’s content as much as you want. But I don’t know, you know, maybe there’s like a conversion product so we can convert people from Western style brewing to other styles of brewing if they want. You know.

[01:30:44] Kirstine: I really like the the tea company Eastern Leaves. We also get some tea from them, and they have two different brewing instructions on the back of their teas, which I think is really, really nice. So yeah, exactly. And I get that that should be like a really simple solution. But first of all, it can be a bit tricky getting that that guide completely right and still allowing people some freedom. But secondly, also like getting people to, to, maybe want to take the jump into buying like a different style of teapot. Like it’s still, still, something that I’m thinking about a lot at least.

[01:31:36] George: I don’t know, maybe it’s because I’m really, I’m really into tea. I don’t know if that was obvious or not, but having a different teapot for a different use case like that sentence in itself could go very deep or not so deep. But perhaps having a teapot which is well suited for brewing with a high leaf to water ratio, and then also more Western style teapot, because there is definitely a time and a place for Western style brewing methods. Like when you’re at work and you just want to have a cup of tea whilst you’re working as well. If I’m at home, I will definitely throw some white tea leaves into a tea teapot. There’s a large teapot and I will just pour hot water in and wait for it, to wait for a bit until I forget. And then remember again. Pour the tea out. Pour more hot water in, let it keep steeping and it will just go on like that all day. So you know those kind of situations you don’t use a lot of leaf. Use a small amount of leaf, but you use all throughout the day and that’s just a different way to experience the tea. So there is time and place for things. But if we want people to brew to get the absolute best flavor profile from a Japanese sencha, then it’s a bit tricky given like a Western style teaware. So yeah, I, it’s a, that’s a tricky one.

[01:33:05] Kirstine: Yeah. Also, if people are just curious, you know, like you don’t want to necessarily send them out of the shop with a very expensive kyusu or something like that because they’re just they’re still curious, you know, in the curious. I don’t want people to invest a lot of money, but you still want them to brew something nice so that they might get more and more into it. Yeah. So maybe again, not the biggest problem, but just something that is a problem for me.

[01:33:33] George: Well, I think it’s a problem for everyone in a way, from the whole supply chain, because educating consumers is really important, because if the consumer is not enjoying the product, without the consumer, the farmers can’t exist with the production of the delicious tea that they want to make. So it’s really important. It’s a very important thing.

[01:33:53] Kirstine: So also in like and of course, now matcha is getting more and more popular and we’re selling a lot of matcha. But like making people understand why it is a very expensive product is also a part of this line of education that I think is like incredibly vital. And so, like, there is cheap matcha to find, but how do we get consumers to understand that there is a point to buying something that is more expensive? Like, that’s oftentimes quality is accompanied with a higher price tag. And that is also something that I’m thinking about a lot, but, yeah.

[01:34:40] George: It’s tricky.

[01:34:40] Kirstine: Understanding supply chain, I guess, is also part of that, right?

[01:34:45] George: Food for thought. Food for thought. Well, I guess this ties into probably what will be our last question. If you could have a giant billboard anywhere with anything on it, metaphorically speaking, getting a message out to millions or billions of people, what would it say and why? It can be a few words or a paragraph. It can be someone else’s quote or something that you think of or often, or you live your life by. It’s up to you.

[01:35:16] Kirstine: That is such a difficult question.

[01:35:19] George: It’s a hard question.

[01:35:21] Kirstine: It’s a very hard question. But, so maybe, something that I think is, is very beautiful and, and could be nice to spread out to people, is actually like a quote that I’m beginning my thesis with, my thesis on tea tourism, that I think is absolutely beautiful. It’s from the “The Book of Tea” by the Japanese thinker Okakura Kakuzo, it’s a book he wrote about about tea in 1906. It’s like a quote that goes: “Meanwhile, let us have a sip of tea. The afternoon glow is brightening the bamboos. The fountains are bubbling with the light. The sowing of the pines is heard in our kettle. Let us dream of evanescence and linger in the beautiful foolishness of things.” I think that is so pretty.

[01:36:23] George: Wow.

[01:36:24] Kirstine: That could be night on a nice and like, a big billboard.

[01:36:27] George: I think quite a few people need to hear that. I can think of a few already. That’s lovely!

[01:36:35] Kirstine: The beautiful foolishness of things is such a good, good thing.

[01:36:39] George: That’s very nice. So wrapping up, are there any questions or anything else you would like to add or anything you would like to share for people to read? You know this will be become a blog. We’ll probably publish the audio too. But is there anything else you would like to add for people listening?

[01:36:59] Kirstine: I hope people will also want to try some Wagashi. I hope that if, if it’s possible for people, wherever they are in the world, to like, give a chance to Japanese sweets, that would be really lovely. Because if there’s something that makes tea better, I think it is sweets.

[01:37:17] George: Sweets and tea. Good combination.

[01:37:21] Kirstine: Yeah. For sure.

[01:37:22] George: All right. Well, thank you so much Kia. It’s been wonderful to have this chat again. And this is really fun.

[01:37:29] Kirstine: It was really, really enjoyable.